Source for lute pegs? Includes ceterone picture [Pictures] - created 09-20-2007

Coleman, Tommy - 09/20/2007.10:15:31

Hello all. I have scoured the net and am having a hard time finding lute pegs that I like. I found a fella across the pond from me but, I would like to stay a little more local. Anyone know of a lute peg source (other than ebony pegs)? Thanks.

I know that some US lute makers use a source in India for their pegs, perhaps one of them would be willing to either share the source or resell some pegs to you.

I am looking inot building a simple 'lathe' to turn them, powered by an electric drill. I will use a rod and bronze bearings to take the side stress off the drill, or maybe a simple mandrel/belt system. Ive been looking a while back for small home made lathes for this type of work, but not alot of luck.

My home built pattern-following lathe is in the library, you merely have to sign up (free) to access it.

There used to be a hand drill powered lathe setup you could buy. Also there are some very small lathes out there, Taigs converted for woodworking, various micro-lathes etc.

Is it possible to use other string instrument pegs. Say, flamenco guitar, viola(in), or cello? I know of a person who made an oud and used violin pegs. Could that work for a lute?

I'm interested in starting to make my own pegs for minstrel banjos, so I'd like to join in with some thoughts and questions. It seems to me you could saw peg blanks out of some hard wood (I think boxwood, rosewood, and ebony are most common), roughly round (or just chamfer) the shafts, and then use a peg shaver to finish the shafts. The buttons could be shaped with a knife and/or sandpaper. Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

Smaller sized violin pegs could be used but you would have to make an extra ‘wall’ down the center of the pegbox because violin pegs are too short otherwise. I haven’t done this so I’m not sure what the pitfalls are--I believe it is discussed in an old book called "Make and Play a Lute", which is not useful for the building of historically accurate instruments but has some very clever jigs in it. I don’t know of another commonly available peg type which is long enough and small enough.

Jon–the approach you describe could be made to work, but it would be very time-consuming even after the learning/setting up curve was over. I can't imagine that it would be worth it to go this way, but FWIW Bob Lundberg thought that very early pegs may well have been made in a similar manner.

Another approach which has been used by a production lute maker in the past was to cut round heads using a plug cutter, then mount separately turned shafts in those by gluing them into a conical hole drilled and reamed in the head.

By the way, about ebony–I am now convinced that properly setup and maintained ebony pegs are NOT a problem as far as wear. So the ebony lute pegs which may still be available through some violin supply companies (Vitali?) would be fine.

Probably the best option is to buy a cheap second user woodturning lathe,

you don't need anything fancy or great capacities so the beginners '24 inch between centres' can be had for very little.

I resisted for quite a few years before buying one. Within 1 set of Lute pegs it had virtually paid for itself and turning is a lot of fun.

Within 1 set of Lute pegs it had virtually paid for itself and turning is a lot of fun.

I would agree, it's a good deal economically, but turning lute pegs is far from fun.

Buying them is almost cheaper too if you add up the time it takes to turn the pegs and think about how much your labor costs. If you are selling an instrument, you can factor in the cost of the pegs towards final price the same as you would with guitar turning machines you buy premade. If you're building for the fun of it and want the experience of turning pegs, it's nice to know you can do all fabrication techniques yourself.

I don't have the contact information for the Indian pegs, but I've bought a few sets from a friend who buys from them. They are cheaper, but have proven to be inconsistent in communication and product quality, which in the long run is a setback.

The Indian source was only in communication once a week via email, we surmised he lives outside the city and traveled to an internet cafe' to conduct business. I have ethical reservations about buying from that source until I know more about the labor he uses.

Stephen,

I lived in India for several years, and the fears and comments in your last two paragraphs are true in general, and not specific to just pegs. God bless the Indian people; I loved them, but in most things we take for granted in the west, they are running so far behind they think they're first.

Cli9ff

I have a south bend 10k engineers lathe, overkill, but it certainly gets the job done. I wish I had a different tool post so I could make a single cutter to profile each pegs head (different cutter for each of several desired heads). Currently I am depending on eye (and a nearby 5x drawing) as I rough with the compound slide and finish with files; no too heads are EXACTLY alike in that technique.

Lots of small lathes on the market for turning pens which should be adaquate, but a larger lathe will have more robust bearings; and will also be useful for other work, like toolmaking.

Dont forget the other part of the job, fileing the flats. I find that takes me as long as the turning itself.

My general procedure begins with sawing (for jatoba, which is roey grained) or splitting a billet. Chucking the larger end, I turn the shank to the correct angle using the compound slide. After making a set and extras, I chuck a piece of scrap, drill and ream it for a jam-chuck. Each blank is rechucked so I can shape the head.

It would be better if I had a tapering attachment on the cross slide, but they have gotten scarce for my model of lathe, and never were cheap.

Jon, because thepegbox holds so many of them, lute pegs are longer than violin pegs. I suppose that some luthiers when faced with even more strings decided not to indulge in yet-longer tools, but instead used a third, central 'side' to support the ends of shorter pegs; at least one such instrument survives and is visible online (Francisco Plebanus Cittern, E.1131).

Dana, if you can get your hands on Bob Lundberg's peg-making article in American Lutherie (it must be in his lute making book too), you can see a way to convert a metal working lathe into an effective pattern-following lathe. The main point is to disconnect the saddle from the screw and take out the cross-slide screw so you can move the cutter around by hand. The rest is just figuring out a way to mount a pattern and follower on the lathe.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/dplathe.html

How about this setup for peg turning? I think pen cutters might also be a good source for wood, but I have not been able to find any plumwood on the web, just one guy maybe. Id like a billet or sorts to cut my own.

I like what Bill Moll once said during a discussion on fret slotting. Many people in the discussion were starting out by saying: "First I measure the distance between the nut and the blah blah on the guitar...... over and over you read this down the thread. Then Moll said "First I measure the distance between my arm and the telephone. Then I call such & such and order them premade."

It was hilarious.

Peg schmeg.

Call 1-800-English Peg Man.

Done.

Stephen,

I too, laughed at Bill's joke. But I've still never used a pre-slotted fretboard. I think that's what it's all about to be an amateur. I don't care if my instruments are done quickly. I want them done by me.

I don't have any skills with a lathe so I would buy the tuning pegs. But the fretboard, bridge and tailpiece are thing I can make. If I bought them I'd feel like I had been cheated out of the experience.

I agree. If you have a backsaw, a small miter box and W-Fret, there's no reason to farm out fret slotting, unless you're doing twenty of them a day.

Oh Stephen. You just don't know what you are missing. Pegs, lovely pegs, more pegs. End pins, lovely end pins, more pegs, more end pins,lovely lovely pegs.

Those are beautiful pegs Michael.

Looks like a bottle of Advil as well.

Don't make me get out my peg pics.

BTW how are you slicing the down the keys? Band saw & sander or other ?

Had to google for Advil, it's an NSAID which is strictly out of the question with the condition of my stomach :-( Actually the background is one of those self-healing cutting mats.

Slicing down the keys? I assume you mean how do I go on to form the heads? I simply use a flatish (sharp) gouge to remove most of the bulk. I then take them to a hand crank grinder which has a small hardwood 'wheel' with abrasive glued on it. The tool rest acts as a guide. The hand crank also doubles up for blade grinding and I also made another hardwood wheel that is impregnated with honing compound. Now that's what I call getting maximum use out of a tool. Might be able to use it as a mini lathe as well. . . .

Cool Michael. Thanks for the pic. I am looking into the mini-lathe, they are so cheap that it does seem pretty economical and fun to boot to make my own pegs. Still aways off though.

Michael, you are having way too much fun.

Beautiful pegs Michael. I also rough in the peg heads after turning with a flat chisel and shallow-sweep gouge. I have a special hole in the side of my ultra-expensive CDX plywood bench top just for this purpose. The pip fits into the hole, and after a couple strokes with the chisel/gouge, its ready for final shaping/smoothing/burnishing with scrapers, tulle, and wood shavings. I burnish most of the other details on the lathe with a bone-folder, wood shavings, and sawdust.

I do my pegs freehand on the lathe -- mostly because I'm still too cheap to buy them pre-made or get a duplicator. While I've never actually enjoyed making pegs, I average about 15-20 minutes per peg when I'm warmed up (not counting polishing/fitting). Of course it takes about 3 pegs to get into the swing of things...

Slicing down the keys? I assume you mean how do I go on to form the heads?

Yes, I call them keys or paddles. I take a big chunk of solid scrap wood and drill a hole in it. The I use the tapered reamer to make the hole the same taper as the peg. I use the chunk of wood as a block hold the peg safely while I push the end of the peg through the band saw to remove the excess wood. Then I hold them up to a sander while still in the chunk of wood. Then I place the chunk in the vise and finish the peg by hand with sand paper and files.

I'm building a baroque guitar now so I might be turning some pegs soon. I have not decided whether to buy them or turn them. I'm looking at the profile of the pegs on the Ashmolean Strad guitar. They're actually quite ugly.

FWIW, here's an easy peg pattern I learned to do while working on a 14 course ceterone (this is the upper pegbox -- the lower pegbox has an additional 14 pegs). I took the peg head shape from a chocolate football..:-)

Ron, those are cool too.

I found the football and bell shapes easy too, but I've never tried to make a peg with a back cut on the ball.

Ron--

Can we see the rest of that instrument?

Yes Ron, show and tell.

Thanks, Steven and Steve -- I really don't have any decent small photos of the whole instrument, as most of them I've taken either have problems due to the instrument's size (about 5 1/2 feet long) or white-balance issues. Let's just say its got lots of pegs and lots of purfling...and isn't really as orange as it looks in the photos (almost as orange, but not quite) :-)

There are some better resolution images and detail shots of it in the "New Instruments" gallery of Andrew Hartig's "Renovata Cythara" site, but here's a shot to give y'all an idea of what it looks like.

I just saw a nice little older real (motorless) mini lathe go for about [cheap price remove by staff] on ebay, and I almost went and bid on it, but Im so far out from making pegs, and there seem to be alot of cheapies without motors, so all you need is a 1/8 hp motor. Just dont bid on mine!It was nice, all metal not like the el-crapoola thats made nowadays, good old USA made. There will be more.

A question on grain direction - should the head (button) of the peg end up with vertical (quartered) grain, flat grain, or does it even matter?

Flat grain.

Andres, thanks, I have the Southbend parts lists and have noted that the tapering attachment kit includes parts I would find difficult to fabricate on my own, the going price for the kit is something I would splurge for, it I could only find one.

Jon I no longer think it really matters with the types of woods being used, but I always tried for vertical on my pegs because the conventional wisdom is that the other way was more prone to splitting.

Michael W.--flat? I'm intrigued. :-)

Yes I agree, flat grain for the grip part of the peg. If that's what you meant.

Do you mean that when you remove the excess material from the grip end of the peg you have flat grain on the flat sides of the grip?

I usually orient it parallel to the flat face of of the peghead, but then again, I've haven't personally seen any lute pegheads split due to peghead grain orientation. I've more often seen the pegs fail at the collar, or bind at the small end of the taper and break the shaft.

Ron, that is just beautiful! I also saw your other instrument at the Hartig site. Nice work. Where do you learn how to make an instrument like that? Did you use museum plans? The rose on the ceterone (cittern?) is just amazing. What is vegetable parchment? Is the scalloped fretboard typical? So many questions. Anyway, thanks for sharing.

I have had pegs split in manufacture, unless you are looking for some grain-related feature that requires a quartered orientation, file your flats parallel to the rings.

More important than this is to avoid runout, spliting the peg billet to prove the long grain direction, then sawing parallel to that will avoid 'short grain'. Knots are of course to be completely avoided.

Dana,

I guess I've been pretty lucky -- for me, all the pegs that have made it off the lathe (i.e. the ones that didn't become flyers) have held up over the last 15 years. I do have to admit that I almost always orient the grain to the flat(scooped) face.

Thanks Tommy -- I pretty much built that instrument from the photo in the New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments, and a handful of measurements I got from James Tyler back in the early 90's (while working on a thesis for a 2nd master's degree (Musicology)). I couldn't afford to finish the degree, so in 1998 I built the instrument while trying to survive as a full-time luthier in Salado, TX.

I drew my own plans for it using a combination of photogrammetry, geometric analysis, and lofting, plus the 2.5 inch photo and Dr. Tyler's measurements. The rose is a fairly common gothic pattern, but since much of the instrument's other detail was obscurred in the photo, I had to "punt" for some of the details.

The scalloped fretboard (with dovetailed fret wedges) is an archetypal and pretty much necessary feature of early citterns to aid their intonation on stopped strings. The veggie parchment I use is an acid-free paper that doesn't shrink like real parchment.

In the 7 years since it was built, I've been corresponding with other ceterone players/makers, and now see many more misses than hits in my design -- it's a good player, though. Feel free to PM about the subject -- I'll be glad to share what I know.

Building the instrument really hammered home one of the peg making concepts that Lundberg discusses in his book. I had 3 differently sized "story" drawings for the pegs, but let the natural variation in finished sizes occur. Once they were complete, I just lined them up largest to smallest and started fitting them to the instrument as though they had been planned in that order.