Many examples of shop-built archtop tailpieces [Pictures, Drawings] - created 10-06-2009

Ellis, Skip - 10/06/2009.17:44:44

Does anyone know how the newer Benedetto tailpieces are made? It appears that there's a metal base with an ebony overlay but no provision (i.e. hinge) for it 'seeking it's own angle' to the bridge.

I built one with a brass strap screwed to the underside of the ebony and bent into a right angle at the end of the body. The string tension pulled the screws loose - maybe by tweaking the bend angle it might work a little better. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Well, I can't say for sure, because I have not seen one, except on his website. However, from the picture on the website, it looks like he has a metal angle (perhaps hinge) inlaid into the bottom of the ebony top piece and probably epoxied in. The back of the metal angle looks like it is overlaid with ebony too.

This probably simplifies some of the steps of having to drill holes in the back of the tailpiece and routing slots for the tailpiece adjuster cable.

I was thinking of doing something like that out of frustration with making the normal Benedetto style tailpiece. I just ruined something like my tenth attempt! I did get one done, but I am making two guitars, and I just can't seem to get it right, despite having made about 5 separate jigs for just this one piece. I need to do somethign that is simpler and easier and produces more consistent results, because I am spending a ton of money buying ebony tailpiece blanks and turning them into fire wood. I was thinking of buying one of those all metal ones and overlaying it with ebony. It would have about the same look and be a lot easier to make.

Does anybody else have trouble with the Benedetto style tailpiece?

Skip, there should be some decent material on combination wood/metal tailpieces in the library. You need to be registered and logged in to see the library, but the wealth of information there is so worthwhile that I just automatically log in when I come onto the forum. Metal and wood tailpieces are not hard to fabricate if you are patient. I struggled for a long time trying to figure out my own design, because I wanted to ground my strings through the tailpiece to the output jack, but I wanted it to look mostly wood.

Christ, lots of the builders here have made beautiful wood and tailgut tailpieces, ala Mr. Benedetto. I don't know about his current tailpieces, and can't find the photos that Skip referenced on the Benedetto website. I'm sure someone with that experience will chime in and help you.

Here's a picture of my own tailpiece. The thing that makes it work for me is that the ball ends of the strings stay on top, rather than underneath (On my first attempt with the ball ends under, two of them rubbed the top and marred the finish.)

Patrick, I really like that tailpiece...elegant (kind of looks like thuya!)

I think the key to making Benedetto all-wood type tailpieces is jigs. I made a bunch after studying the pic on pg 179 of his book. Basically, a template to mark for bandsawing & then pattern-sanding (which I find safer than routing), jigs for tapping, then holding for drilling gut holes, jig for matching adjuster slots, and a jig to route string holes, then slots. (I dremel out under the slots so the buttons seat well away from the top.) Hope this helps.

Patrick,

Dave,

I made about five jigs for mine, but I still get inconsistent results. Part of the problem may be that I made the jigs to work on an improvised pin router, which is made of a piece of plywood with two aluminum rails on it to which I screwed a Colt router. There is a pin in the plywood aligned with the router bit. It is a bit cumbersome to operate, and things are not perfect. The biggest problems I have is making the string slots above the holes for the string ends.

Do you have a way of using the router to make the parts without such a system. Do you use router collars? I looked at the pictures you posted, and your tailpieces are very nice indeed. Very scultural.

Would you point me to a picture of the new model? The Benedetto tailpieces I can find are the same as they have always been.

It is in the benedetto guitars site, under the store, accessories.

Click

Dwight - go to the Benedetto website, go to the shopping section and look around for 'guitar accessories' - you'll see a photo of the tailpiece.

Do you have a way of using the router to make the parts without such a system.

yes (see jigs above)

Do you use router collars?

yes

First of all, Dave, I'm glad you like my tailpiece. This one is walnut burl veneer, layered over a substrate of solid walnut, which itself is just a cover for a brass piece.

Christ, my tailpiece isn't hinged. It's really a brass tailpiece with a wood cover, on top and also on the tail end. Remember, my goal was to provide a ground path for my strings to go to the output jack which is in the end pin position. There is no reason you can't make a similar tailpiece starting with a hinge. Bill Moll (who makes wonderful archtop instruments) has stated that his tailpiece starts out as a hardware store hinge.

Now...with regard to the more traditional Benedetto tailpiece, Dave Stewart has made some beautiful pieces that work on the cello tailgut concept. Study his jigs. In particular, I like what he says about pattern sanding, rather than routing. Routers scare the heck out of me--but I do use them. Pattern sanding seems safer and more forgiving to me.

Just to clarify how the guts of my tailpiece look, here's another picture of the metal works.

The large hole lets the threaded part of the output jack slide through, but the collar on the jack snugs up firmly against the tailpiece all around. Then the output jack and a single small screw hole the whole thing in place. The cross piece was dovetailed onto the long strap, and soldered with common flux and plumber's solder--just like you would find in the water supply of your house. If you do this, read about annealing brass in the library first. When I got this built, I sent it out for plating on the one part that shows. They did copper plating, then silver, and then gold (gold plate doesn't stick to brass), so it matches my other hardware. Not exactly cheap, but well worth it to me. The wooden parts were cut into smaller pieces, easier to reshape, and then reglued and veneered.

Nice!!

I've got a hunch that's how Benedetto's works. Do you epoxy the metal to the wood?

Hi, Skip. Yes, the wood is epoxied to the brass. The brass carries all of the load, so there's no need for any mounting screws--except that if I ever want to change out the wood, I'll have sort of a mess on my hands. I also glued some dark brown felt over the underside--trimmed just inside the perimeter of the wood. This was to minimize marring the finish on the guitar, especially where it bears against the heel. It really was pretty easy to fabricate. Figuring it out was absolutely the hardest part of the deal. The brass came from a hardware store strap, and the pattern looked like this:

The wood cover was lots easier than it looks. I started by cutting pieces like this, and then rotating the small front piece before re-gluing, so I wouldn't be drilling into end grain.

Then I took the wide and long center part to my drill press drum sander and shaped it like this image. Before re-gluing, I routed the underside to receive the brass. When I glued it up, I left a little slot for the brass string holes to protrude through.

After glue up, I used my fingerboard radius sanding block to round over the top. Then glued on my veneer. Then cut and sanded the whole thing to shape. Kind of tedious, but not at all difficult

Clever Patrick! It worked out well, & you could customise it depending on fingerboard/headplate woods! Without the gut, did you forego the saddle? Would you consider making the brass one piece, out of sheet, next time?

Great tailpiece! I could not find where you said what the dimensions of the strap are-- looks like about 1.5"-- also do you rout the butt of the guitar to receive the tailpiece or just let the tailpiece stay proud of the wood? One other thing-- is that a 90 degree bend or maybe 95 degrees? Thanks for sharing

Phil

Hi, Dave and Phil. I didn't realize this would provoke much discussion, but if it helps Skip and Christ, and other readers, too, so be it.

Phil, as best I can remember, this was a common piece of brass from the hobby department of a hardware store in my nearby larger city. It was about 1" wide, about 12" long, and about 3/32" thick. You probably don't need that much thickness in the strap, but you DO need that thickness in the cross bar that retains the string ends, because once you file and polish out your hammer marks, that part will finish up much thinner than 3/32". All of the brass was let into the wood a little deeper than its own thickness. This allowed me to round out a slight concavity in the tail end of the thing to accommodate the curvature of the tail. Then the felt was glued over as described above. Then everything was snugged into the body with the combined action of the output jack screw and the little wood screw (a bronze colored screw meant for hanging cabinet hinges.)

Regarding the angle of the bend, I just "eyeballed" an angle from the tail up to the bridge--at what I assumed would be optimal bridge height. If you can get within a couple of degrees, the strings will pull everything to the optimal line in a few weeks' time. My strings are coming directly out of the end face of my tailpiece, so my tailpiece points directly to the top of the bridge. If your strings are coming out of the TOP of yours (ala Mr. Benedetto), then your tailpiece will find an angle a little lower to the top. It's not about the angle of the tailpiece--it's all about the angle from wherever the strings exit the tailpiece to the bridge. That's what you have to remember and visualize when you are laying out a design. The tailpiece will ultimately conform to this angle of pull (unless it is just huge and massive).

Dave, yes, I have thought long and hard about sawing everything out of a single, wider strap of brass. But here's my problem with that: I'm doing all of this by hand, with a hacksaw and files. I thought about the work required to saw everything to shape from a wider piece versus the work required to fit the dovetail, and the dovetail won. I'm not saying I made the correct decision. It was simply the decision I made at the time. No tailpiece saddle on this guitar. The bend is about 1/16" above the binding, so a saddle is not required.

One more thing: In this method, after you glue the veneer on, you have to pierce the veneer with a hobby knife to cut out that scoop where the strings thread in. It's a bit tedious sanding the edges out to fit the recess perfectly. However, the slight curvature toward the tail of the recess was an added visual bonus that I hadn't anticipated. I was very happy with it.

I sure am glad you guys like this tailpiece. I have now talked way more than I should have, but I've had fun trying to recall all this stuff. I hope it helps our first two correspondents.

Dave: Any chance of seeing your patterns in action at your sanding station? I think that would be very informative for all of us.

This is the only shot I have re pattern sanding the tail, (taken before I got a Robosander but the principle is the same.......just have to flip the bearing wheel to top registration).

Nice improvisation!

I, for one, and very appreciative of all the time that everybody has taken to explain their process. It is very helpful, and I thank you all. It opens up a lot of possibilities, and it helps me to think of making my own style, next time around. Just knowing that there is not just one "right" style gets me to thinking of what would be best for me.

The last questions I have about Patrick's tailpiece are how do you cut that ramp, and how the strings go through to the front of the tailpiece. I see how they are attached with the brass, but do you then drill holes through the wood, or is that part routed out and they go under the wood?

I am contemplating a design where the metal plate that holds the ball ends of the strings is bent downward and the strings are fed through from the bottom (instead of bending upward and you feed the strings through the holes through the top of the tailpiece). So, the top would be solid and not have a slot or ramp in it. However, I am wondering if, once you get this on to the guitar and strung up, if there will be enough room between the bottom of the tailpiece and the guitar top to get the strings fed through.

Nice improvisation!

Thanks Mario. There's always a way...!

Hi, Christ. After I cut my wooden pieces, and while they were still flat and squared, I rotated the front piece a quarter of a turn and drilled the six string holes. This method allowed me to avoid drilling into end grain. I always have problems with skinny bits wandering and following the end grain, so this method allowed me to make straighter and better spaced holes. The largest center piece was easy. I just took it over to my drill press drum sander, stood the piece on edge, and sanded the ramp to the approximate shape you see in my schematic (above). Then I reglued everything. I left a gap for the Brass string retainer to poke through the top. THEN I clamped the wood and brass parts together. I fed the drill bit through the wooden holes and drilled each of the six string holes in the brass. Then did a bit of polishing and sent the brass off for plating. While it was out for about ten days, I shaped and veneered the wooden part, and started applying finish.

Dave, that IS cool. I haven't bothered to make a bunch of patterns, because I always seem to do things a little differently each time I build something. But I have done an awful lot of freehand shaping and refining with a drum sander set-up very much like yours. I'll remember this in the future. Thanks!

Christ, one more thing: If you build the bottom-loading tailpiece, please document it well with pictures and then post your method. I considered trying that, and I believe it would look really nice. However, I decided that top loading would be a little easier for me. There's no reason that loading from the bottom won't work, though.

I have come to prefer attaching the strings from the underside of the tailpiece. Take a look at the Gibson L5 and super 400 tailpieces, how the metal is just folded down and back to form a channel the string balls catch in. I fold a channel of .062" (1.5 mm) brass, and inlay it into the underside of the tailpiece. I don't drill holes anymore, I cut slots instead, so the strings can be taken off and returned to the tailpiece when doing set up work. It is simple, and leaves the top of the tailpiece for any treatment you prefer, like inlay, carving, shaping, etc.

I fold a channel of .062" (1.5 mm) brass, and inlay it into the underside of the tailpiece. I don't drill holes anymore, I cut slots instead, so the strings can be taken off and returned to the tailpiece when doing set up work.

Michael, I'm intrigued but having a hard time visualizing what you mean. Any pics or links you could share that might help clarify??

The slots are pure genius! That solves so many problems. I am now seeing an even better design. I will post pictures when I work on this.

Here is a basic template of paper and the completed bend in brass.

Here is the tailpiece from the underside, showing the brass piece epoxyed in place and slots cut.

Obviously these are different tailpieces, but the concept is the same.

I drill a lot of holes in the brass so the epoxy can squeeze through and make a good grip, plus lighter weight.

In the second pic you can see the ground strap from the brass piece to the metal cable loop. The plastic cover has been removed from part of the loop so metal can contact the jack to ground the strings. This is not always necessary, but some folks seem to think it is.

Thanks a lot for the pix & further descriptions...that helps a lot. The brass looks like it's epoxied down into a recessed "pocket" to mechanically help counter (along with the epoxy) string pull?

I don't drill holes anymore, I cut slots instead, so the strings can be taken off and returned to the tailpiece when doing set up work

So string-width slots are through the wood & one leg of the brass channel (ie a string could be lowered out of the slot & removed while the rest of the guitar remained strung?)

Cool!

(Great idea re ground strap, though I've never had an issue.)

thanks again

ps Are you able to bend the brass piece with a vise-grip sheet metal bender or do you use a small brake?

Michael, this is really interesting. I, too, had thought about folding brass in a similar way and cutting slots. I could see it right there on my Frequensator tailpiece, but I couldn't figure out how to put two folds in the brass to form the pocket. I was using heavier brass, too, so that was a limiting factor. I am very interested to know how you accomplished that--tools, annealing, etc. etc. I also like your solution for a grounding path to the output jack.

Yes, epoxied into the recess.

I use a vise, hammer, some wood blocks to push the brass, and a piece of 3/16" metal the brass is formed around. A propane torch is handy to anneal the brass, as it work hardens easily. Ir is rather like blacksmith work, forming the first bend, annealing, and forming the second bend to complete the "hook" cross section. It is much easier to make one channel section than it is to make two like in my pic. My visual design won out over ease of making the part.

Hi Skip. I hope this pic is big enough, I made a steel (lasercut) template of the shape I want and then cut it out with a copy router. It is done in 2 pieces (top and bottom) with different woods to match the fingerboard and neck. The bottom piece is different in that it has a cutaway for the kevlar tail rope (exactly the same as a cello tailpiece).

This is interesting tail rope, it come from France and a company that makes violin and cello accessories. The kevlar is said to have a better sound?

BUT. I have had a problem here, the string tension was too much for the relatively light tailblock and "lifted" the lower part of the ribs of the guitar. I have repaired the ribs but I need to find someone who can fabricate a metal bracket that "folds" around the bottom of the guitar so that the string tension is taken up by the bottom of the endblock.

Anyone else have this problem?

Here's an 'in-progress look at what I came up with. I still have to clean it up and inlay it into the ebony. I used Pat Hanna's sawtooth arrangement for a good mechanical bond between the two pieces, then silver soldered them together. This is going on a Benedetto 'Benny' type thing for myself/ I'll post some photos when I get it together.

Skip,

Pat

I have repaired the ribs but I need to find someone who can fabricate a metal bracket that "folds" around the bottom of the guitar so that the string tension is taken up by the bottom of the endblock.

Murray - these are easy to make and stronger than any metal. If you were just making a bracket to connect the tail piece and tail block it'd be a very simple process.

Nick, don't keep us in the dark. What and how is your tailpiece made and how is it stronger than metal?

Looks like Carbon fiber cloth, impregnated and shaped.

But I would like the tutorial.

And stronger than an equivalent weight of steel, but certainly not stronger than steel.

Carbon has a tensile strength that far exceeds steel.

I'll try to find the photos and do a thread.