Gibson headstock veneer - black paint or just clearcoat? - created 08-14-2006

Hartman, Dean - 08/14/2006.19:32:46

Hi folks,

Recent member; I think that this is my first post. My son and I are refinishing his Gibby SG. It "took a hit" and we are at the point of gluing on the new fibreboard (FB) headstock veneer. This one has mother of pearl inlays for the logo.

I am positive that the original veneer was painted black (because the truss rod nut had black paint on it) then clearcoated. The person from whom I bought the replacement overlay says to just clearcoat it. I dunno...

I do think I need to shoot some black on it, as the FB is kind of grayish. Trouble is, how do I mask off the logo? The only thing I can think that would work would be to apply scotch tape over entire logo, then trim away the excess with an exacto knife. My concern is that I do not know how the tape will react (if at all) to the lacquer.

The other thing would be to spray the entire thing, then to somehow clean off the paint from the MOP. The inlays do not appear to be as thick as those on my Les Paul so I would be concerned about messing up the "black on gray that I want to leave behind" as I try to clean off the MOP.

I am about to glue the veneer onto the headstock. Is yellow carpenter's glue the right thing for this job? Then how do I prep the face of the veneer to clean up any fingergrease, from handling whilst I carved it up, before I paint it?

Thanks all,

Dean

Hi Dean, welcome!

I think the FB looks pretty black once it's sprayed. You can check it with some naptha, to see what it will look like. The naptha can also be used to clean it.

Is the inlay off of the guitar?

Like Charlie says, you can put some finish on it somewhere to get an idea of what it'll look like. You can also wipe it down with Fiebing's black leather dye- you can buy it from Stew-Mac or at a shoe repair store- it will not affect the inlays.

> Is the inlay off of the guitar?

If you are asking if it is the orignal inlay off of the other veneer, No. It had a gold-toned decal that bubbled from heat during a previous repair attempt (mine). I even asked Gibson if they would send me a new one if I sent them serial number, copious photos, and the old decal. Nope...

I bought an after-market rectangular "blank" that has an MOP logo installed. I've got it rough-carved, awaiting the glue up.

Carpenter's glue OK?

I will test finishes on the scrap cut-offs. I had forgot that I still have some of the original finish "skin." It is definitely NOT just clearcoat - it is black and I cannot see through it.

On another note, we are going to have this painted (brother-in-laws body shop). How do "they" get the painted finish on the neck, only have clearcoat on the sides of the rosewood fingerboard, but there is NO EDGE to be felt where the paint stops??

As far as Gibson logos go, their current logos are shell veneer rectangles where the letters are masked then the whole thing is sprayed with opaque black, IIRC. I don't know about the veneer, but I'll check out the 335 I dropped and took some finish off of and see. I'm pretty sure the headstock front was sprayed with an opaqe black.

Mask off the fretboard with masking tape and spray finish up to the edge of the fretboard. After the tape is removed, scrape the edge with a razor blade to remove the finish "edge" and make it smooth.

Thanks for the responses, folks. Much appreciated.

How would you propose that I mask the Gibson logo? By definition, Masking Tape could be used, but I cannot see through the blue tape I have in order to score it just at the edges of the letters. This is why I thought about using scotch tape. Would lacquer "eat" at the tape?

Or could I just paint the entire headstock black, then use a rounded xacto blade to carefully scrape the black paint off of the logo?

I got it glued on last night. Can't wait to get home to remove the clamps to start drilling tuner holes and cleaning up the edges...

Well, I got the clamps off to find that the veneer had shifted a little during the clamping process. Not too much, and I had lots of excess "overhang" all around. With my Dremel, I cleaned up those edges to within hand-sanding range.

This almost brings me to the point of painting it black so I still have questions:

1) Will scotch tape work to mask the logo, or will lacquer melt the tape??

2) If I don't tape it, and shoot the entire headstock face, can I simply (and carefully!) scrape the paint off of the MOP with a rounded exacto knife?

If neither of these are recommended, what would you do?

Thanks!

I don't know if lacquer will melt the tape, you'll have to try it yourself. Or use masking tape.

You could mask off the entire logo, spray it black, remove the tape, and touch up around the logo with a small brush, sand, then clearcoat the whole thing.

You could also scrape the black off the logo, sand, then clear the whole thing.

Did you get my suggestion of wiping the whole thing with the black leather dye? It works very well, and it won't color the MOP at all. This makes it really easy.

Hi Mark,

Yes, thanks for that idea; I did read that earlier. It sounds like a great idea but, knowing that Gibson sprayed the original, I want to do the same. :-) I have a bit of mahogany in the truss rod "pocket" that I want to blacken, so the spray will work great in there.

Due to my veneer having shifted a little, my nut slot is a little too wide on one side. Should I file away to other side to even it up and get a new, wider nut made (after painting is all done), or is there some way to fill the gap before I apply paint?

The dye will also blacken the mahogany, and will save you the headache with the inlay. I like this idea; it's simple, quick, and clean.

Regarding the nut slot, how much is it off by? A really wide nut won't look original.

I haven't measured it, but maybe about 1/32" on one side. I was thinking of building up my magic Super Glue and Baking Soda in that area. I would then file it down to the proper size, then paint (or leather stain - I'm liking the sound of EASY at this point!).

Where did you get the inlaid fb overlay? i have a gibson j45 repair in the shop and even had a friend/colleague who is a gibson auth repair center try to get authentic parts for me and couldn't. seems they were a bit worried that the headstock/serial were number missing.

Michael,

I sent you an email, but the short answer is: search ebay. :-)

Dean

So now I have the new headstock veneer shaped properly, and have a couple coats of sanding sealer on my son's SG.

My painter is going to paint the veneer black, then will clear-coat it along with the rest of the guitar. Should I apply sanding sealer to the face of the headstock or leave it alone? So far I have masking tape over the face, but have sealed the rear and sides.

Thanks,

Dean

Dean, please don't start a second discussion on your topic when the original discussion is still active. Thanks.

Hi Deb,

The reason I started a new topic was to avoid what I was afraid WOULD happen, which HAS happened. :-) The thread appears to have been "buried" and has not been responded to... No matter, though. I am not going to seal the veneer.

Progress update: I have applied sanding sealer to the entire guitar (sans veneer) and have an UNEVEN "glassy-smooth" surface. (Remember that this is a Gibson SG with lots of curves, points and bevels. :-)

All pores in the mahogany have been filled, and surface has been sanded to 400 grit. I have been sanding in the direction of the grain but want to get a FLAT, smooth surface before handing over to the painter. He wants it sanded to 600 grit so, if I were to block sand across the grain (if this is the appropriate technique) to level out the surface, should I use more 400 or will switching to 600 grit do the job in one step?

Thanks,

Dean

Dean, there are several things that concern me in your post. Bear in mind I do my own spraying and have been finishing many decades. I also have finished many more surfaces than just wood.

One troublesome thing is sanding to 600 before there is any finish. If he wants a guitar sanded to 600 grit, he would not be finishing anything for me. This shows a unacceptable experience with wood finishing. This is not even commonly done on metal spray finishing. No point at all doing that with a wood surface. I personally would not want to have this person do any finishing at all. I does not matter if some one can spray well if they do not know how to prep the surface. I do not leave the prep to anyone if I want to control how it will look when it is done. That is the most important part of any finish on any surface. If I sound a bit harsh I am sorry about that, but I would tell any of my friends and family exactly what I am telling you.

As far as I know even PRS does not sand any finer than 320 on the sealer coats and that is on a metallic finish. The reason there is, that the fine flakes can show small surface irregularities. 220 is the normal grit. That is as far it needs to be taken until there is enough finish on the surface to be able to level before buffing. You need to have a few coats of sealer on just to use 320 to level.

The other troublesome thing is to block sand across the grain before having enough finish to level. This puts scratches in the wood you cannot remove after the finish is applied. Across the grain only after enough coats of finish not just sealer, unless it is a something like high build polyester. If you sand though to the wood anywhere when blocking at an angle it leaves those cross grain scratches. You have to sand those with the grain before reapplying a sealer or finish coat.

Just these two things would get me in serious trouble if I ever did them on the job. With my experience I would be expected to know not to do that at all. Think about what I have said here carefully before going further with this job.

R P,

Thanks for the comments and concerns. My painter is among the best in his large Canadian market, and he was quick to admit that he knows nothing about painting wood. We are doing a BASF Carizzma (flip flop) color over a gold base, so perhaps your comments about fine flakes leads me to consider sanding to (no finer than) 320 grit.

My reason for considering cross grain sanding is because I have small "hills and valleys" that go with the grain. These show up when I use a straight something-or-other in the room (as a reference) and tilt the guitar such that the finish (sanded to 400) acts as a mirror. Only then can I tell that what I FEEL as a flat surface really is not. What is the best way to tackle that?

Thanks again,

Dean

Sanding block.

I did use a sanding block (about 2 x 4", not a 2x4). I do have a larger block I will try (about 4 x 4 - again, coincidental). It must be more of a finesse/experience thing. Perhaps I will "get there." :-)

Make sure you use a hard block and not a felt or otherwise cushioned one.

Well, maybe that's it... My sanding block has a black, spongey pad that sits between the sandpaper and the actual block. I'll see what else I can find or buy something else.

Dean, you don't have to buy anything. Just use a smooth flat piece of wood, just the right size to fit your hand and wrap your sandpaper around it- and go for it.

I use a maple block that is 3 X 1 5/8 X 1" with a 1/16" thick piece of high pressure rubberized cork gasket material glued to one broad side. It does a good job and conserves sandpaper. If I'm sanding on a slight contour the cork side works good and for dead flat, I use the hardwood side.

I cut standard sanding sheets into eight 2 3/4" x 4 1/2" pieces. You could also size your wood block to cut sheets into 1/16ths. If I try to use bigger sanding blocks, the results are not any better and the edges of the sheets load up and wear and the middle sees very little wear, thus a loss of good paper. To each their own?

Like Mark said, a flat wood block will get you there. Happy sanding.

Dean, I am glad the finisher is an honest fellow. It can be hard to find a person with the skills needed to do this kind of work. I am relieved that this is a modern base clear system because it takes a little different approach and finer grits will not normally lead to adhesion issues. I do understand only too well the need to level the surfaces evenly and your desire to do so, shows the right mind set to get this done. Lighting is very important in this process. It becomes more so when a finish is a lighter metallic or one with a metallic base coat. This is when any scratches really stick out if they are there.

The cross grain stuff can be done but it does require that you go back over the leveled area with the grain and take out cross grain scratches. One mistake many make when still in the learning process is not being meticulous about getting them all out before using a finer grit. There are a lot of ways to level a flat surface by sanding. Too many to really list them all but, you can angle the block while still sanding with the grain if the block is long enough and spans most of the areas to be leveled. All leveling is improved by over lapping angled sanding strokes. Yes, that is including radiuses surfaces.

I use a cross hatch at around a 35 to 45 degree angle to the centerline of the surface I want to work to level. Basically the more angles you approach the strokes from side to side the more even the entire surface will be. I paid a lot of dues until was shown this and it has paid off big time. The picture is a example of one way to level a flat but it can be applied to a curved or compound radii surface. The key is to work to a centerline but it does not have to be down the actual center of a guitar body for example. It is only to work a particular area until it is level, then move to another. A radius requires a flexible block and working to the center of the radius as if it was the center of a flat area.

The only difference is that it is a twisting motion to keep the shape of the radius. I hope this makes sense because it is hard to describe, but easy show someone. The pictures will help get you thinking in this manner I hope and not be confusing. The first is the cross hatch to the center of the area being worked. The second is a radius using the same cross hatch but the angle is made in a twisting motion which is a combination of forward, across and down the side. The center arrow is the angle that results from the two motions together.

R P,

Thanks again. I have been using your "centerline" technique which much better results than I was able to get earlier.

Now that you know it is a base coat/clear coat finish, does the "sand to 600 grit" make more sense? Any issues with that now?

Dean

Dean, it's good that technique is helping, it will be much improved as you get a better feel for it. When you sand with the grain remember that you are basically sanding a flat bottom groove onto your surface so angling the block a little helps that as well. The larger area you can sand at once the flatter the overall surfaces will be. When the paint is done it will be obvious how much difference doing that makes. One thing I wanted to make clear about the centerline idea is that it works over every kind of contoured or faceted surface. It is only determining how to apply it so that it does not change the shape of the surfaces you are sanding. That is one of the things that improves over time. An SG shape with the flat beveled facets on the body, is one of those things that rewards a technique like this. It can also remind you of what you missed. Take your time and maybe only you and the finisher will know where the flaws are. There is really no perfect finish to the finisher, but you can still have a stunning result.

The only time 600 grit would be of much use is if the metallic flakes are ultrafine and small enough to jam into the the sanding scratches sideways of a 320 to 400 grit sanded surface. Not very likely. All that is needed is for the reflective surfaces on the flakes to be lying flat, then there will be no irregular appearing areas in the metallic base. I would go no finer than 400 myself in almost every case. It is easy to get obsessive about sanding, but if it offers no real improvement it is wasted time. You could be using that to enjoy the fruits of all that labor you put into it!

All you need to determine how fine is to sand some sealed scrap in 320 and use some spray-can gold or silver over that. You will know if your flakes are small enough to show minor imperfections. The spray can stuff is very fine flakes and if that does not show anything then you can stop at 320. If not and it is rare to have to, go up to 400 and check it there. If you really needed to, you can continue until you have what you wanted.

I would like to see how this turns out, so be a sport and take some pictures and post them. I know I will not see the real depth of the flip-flop colors on a monitor but I can easily remember how that looks in person.

I have also been sanding at a slight angle to the grain and there is a benefit in terms of registration. Since the angle is varied for every grit, this allows you to see which grit you have to go back to if scratches show up in the final polish. This isn't my own idea. I read about it somewhere.

Barry, that is a nice useful idea to keep in mind and a good example of how blocking out a surface can evolve over time. I can see how that would also help keep track of all the sanded areas at each grit. If you have to stop sanding for some reason, it would make picking up where you left off easier too. If you are working with lower reflectivity woods or colors this could be a real time saver at the very least.

With those types some things do not show up well until they get hit with a direct bright light. Those varied angles would certainly make a difference in the final surface quality when you are finish sanding before buffing. I'll bet that would help quite a bit when doing a black carved top guitar.

Update: I have applied the last of the sanding sealer (I hope), and have painted the headstock gloss-black. Have some sanding to do and hope to get this up to our painter next weekend.

Thanks to everyone for your help so far - much appreciated.

Dean

Dean, that has got to be nice, to be so close to done. I am really glad the finisher is a pro. I have not done a flip flop finish yet, but I suspect it takes a meticulous approach. A gold base or any metallic is plenty picky on its own Let us know how it goes.

My Gibby logo is fairly level with the veneer (not higher than the veneer like on my Les Paul). When I painted it black, and cleaned off the excess from the logo, the MOP logo was actually lower than the paint. As I sanded around the logo to get clean edges on the black, I "burned through" down to the grayish veneer in spots. Darn, said I. So I shot some black into a cup and brushed on those spots. Then sanded those, but burnt through a couple other spots. Darn. So I decided to try some clear lacquer over top (since wetting the veneer with lighter fluid turned it jet black), hoping all would appear black. If it didn't, I was committed to stripping it down and starting over. One coat of clear later and, HELLO, the thing looked great! I decided that I would finish it up so that the painter would not have to touch the face of the headstock (similar to if we had the original, and were just refinishing the colored body). BUT, the lacquer turned out to be too soft. I left a small dent in the clear just by leaning the guitar against a smooth-edged stereo stand. Now I have block sanded it down (fairly close to the black, I hope) and will the painter shoot his clearcoat (which should set much harder) over top.

Quick question, not having to do with the headstock. (Should I have opened a new thread?)

I am taking guitar to the painter-in-law this weekend. Am using a block to diagonal-sand the body, and find that I "burn through" the sanding sealer in spots, exposing the mahogany grain, even though the surface is fairly (in a good way) flat. Over the past couple weeks I would apply more sealer, by brush, then try to even things back out. Burn through; seal; burn thr... you get the idea. I have no "spray" apparatus to apply a nice, even coat to "Call It Good."

Is there some trick/technique to get this done, with a brush, to avoid the rework? Or should I take the remaining (like, 95% of the gallon...) sanding sealer up and ask them to shoot that first?

Thanks! We are getting close to saying goodbye to the ol' (well, 2001) SG for probably a few months (the paint shop is quite busy).

Hi Dean. I have no real idea what that sealer is like, so bear that in mind. It is possible you do not have enough sealer thickness to be able to level it without cutting into the wood. It is either that or some other things. Using too heavy of a grit will do that, sanding to long in one spot will do it as well. I think the sealer is not thick enough to level properly and you may be sanding too long in one spot.

Brushing anything evenly is not easy to do. It took me quite a while, to just get decent at it. I still suck at it compared to the guys who do it all the time. I did find out that a high quality (expensive) brush and learning to load just the right amount of material in the brush helped the most. Brushing technique is another art form to master.

Block sanding a SG is not the easiest of jobs and blocking out a surface is an acquired skill that takes time to master. You may need to use a longer block or check the block you are using with a straight edge. I flatten my blocks on sheet glass backed up with MDF and the sticky PSA sandpaper. Normally the grits range from 80 to 120 for that. A flat block makes a huge difference. That is one reason why I like the rubber types, easy to flatten the bottom just like you would do to a hand plane. It may also help to use a razor blade to scrape/level the brush ridges/marks a bit before you block.

Stay off the corners, edges and points until the rest is flat. Then use the finest grit that will smooth them out and a rubber/fabric mouse pad for backing up the sandpaper. It is essential to use the least amount of downward pressure you can when sanding sharp points or corners. This really applies to any sanding, it is just more critical on points and corners. This is why many experienced finishers load up those areas first before they spray the rest. That way you know you have enough on it to level. I hope some of this helps, it is not easy to explain this kind of thing and even a picture is not as good as seeing it done.

That is why it was one of my first concerns that the finisher was not doing the prep, because of the nature of an SG guitar body. I pretty much know what to expect with that, and I will be finishing a guitar like that pretty soon. Pointy, beveled and curved is not easy to spray or sand evenly without a lot of experience. I would recommend a few Strat shapes first before tackling one like an SG .

It might help to have them spray a few coats of the sealer because it will be more even than a brush. If 1/32nd of an inch of sealer is not enough to flatten out the surface without cutting into the wood, then the body is not flat enough, too heavy of a grit is being used, or sanding too long in one spot or inaccurately. Do stop after a few sanding strokes and see exactly how far you are cutting. Also keep doing that and monitor your progress closely. Keeping track of that and enough sealer thickness is the only way avoid resealing. I am hoping that you have a few more useful bits of info to get you through this job.

R P,

First of all, thank you for all your help throughout this thread. I appreciate ALL of the feedback and suggestions I have received from everyone, and REALLY appreciate the detail you have put in to your responses.

I am using 400 grit with a block cut from the end of a 2x4. I have sanded it against some flat-on-the-concrete-floor 180 grit, and trust that it is flat.

I just applied two more coats (FINAL coats; this time for sure) of sealer. I will take it easier with the 400 and switch to the 600 before I burn through.

Back to the workshop...

I'm glad to help Dean. One of the reasons I use the glass to flatten a block to a pretty accurate degree is that a finish film thickness can be very thin. A block that is out of flatness only .005 can cut into a .015 thickness rapidly and be cutting in the substrate before you can easily tell it is. Since a great deal of my time finishing was touching up and repairing finishes, I did not have a way to tell how thick the finish I was working on was.

The only thing that I had control of was the sanding and tools I used for that. I am pretty sure the concrete floor is not flat enough to help much with a thin sealer film. So sand carefully and get as good as you can. Most pro's will touch up prep work if they see a need to. It is their name on the work. A top painter did not get there by letting things go or slide by. You can ask me how I know, but it will suffice to say that painters talk.